NPR’s Studio 360 broadcasted a fascinating radio piece about Superman and what he symbolizes Sunday. Among the many experts speaking in the show is Michael Chabon.

“I mean, you look and you pick up comic books of the 1940’s, and it’s very easy to see what’s on peoples’ minds, what’s going on,” Chabon says. “It’s the war.”

He also says Superman’s logo is a reference to the Nazi swastika. “It’s all right there. Big swastikas everywhere. And so, yeah, the swastika is a kind of Superman “S” or a Batman bat. It’s sort of the mark, the imprint that strength makes on weaker material.”

He continues: “Fascism is inherently appealing to people who have no power and are weak, and so is Superman. I mean, Superman was created by a couple of guys who had no power and were weak and wished they were strong and could do more than they could with their bodies. I mean, fascism is all about bodies and strength and power and the imposition of will. That’s what Superman is all about.”

The narrator notes that the name “Superman” comes from the writings of Friedrich Nietzche, a favorite writer of Adolf Hitler.

But he’s also a reference to the New Deal thinking of the time, Chabon says.

“Superman was initially conceived very much as a champion of the meak and the oppressed against the powerful and strong. Somebody who was going to intercede on the side of the little guy against the big bosses,” he says.